采访者：Denisa Tomkova
受访者：朱发东 Zhu Fadong
1. Identity card work was inspired by the fact that people from other provinces need to apply for temporary resident card came when they want to come to Beijing. Could you explain it to me more though? Have you used it as a real ID or have you considered it as art?
您的作品 工作的灵感来自于一个事实，即从其他省份的人需要申请临时居民卡来了，当他们要来北京。對於利用身分證這個既有的形式與格式，你有没有把它作为一个真正的身份证或者您對於艺术的界定，以及藝術家角色的界定為何吗？
没错，我的《身份证》作品灵感来自于中国大陆每个成年人都必须持有的身份证， 但更重要的是这个身份证所显示的内容对应着后面的户口信息。也就是说无论你现在是在北京、上海还是广州等大城市，只要你出示身份证，马上就会暴露你的户籍，你不属于你现在生活的这座城市，而要改变这一状况，对于普通大众来说，几乎是不可能的。
Yes, my work “Identity Card” is inspired by the identity card that every grownup of Chinese mainland must hold, but what is more important is the household information it reveals. That is to say, whether you are now in big cities such as Beijing, Shanghai or Guangzhou, as long as you show your ID card, you will have your registered permanent residence exposed immediately. You don’t belong to this city where you are living. It’s nearly impossible to change this situation for ordinary people.
我的作品就是对这些不公与歧视的体制所做的回应。这是作为一个公民的回应，也是作为一个艺术家的回应！希望中国人也能享有迁徙自由，因为这只是一项最基本的人权！
My work is a response to this system of unfairness and prejudice. This is a response from me, as a citizen as well as an artist. I hope the Chinese can also enjoy the freedom of immigration for it is merely a basic human right!
2. Do you find the situation with identity cards still the same? If not what has changed?
你觉得在当今的情况下你是否会再创作同样的作品？ 你觉得关于的情况 在近些年是否还相同？如果不是，发生了什么变化？
可以肯定的是，在今天（当下）我肯定不会再创作这样的作品了，倒不是今天的情况相比当时有什么变化或有什么好转，其实恰恰相反。在现实面前，艺术显得无能为力，甚至我的艺术观念也很难让更多的受众知晓，艺术的圈子化或者说小范围化，这一点和中国的互联网很像，中国有互联网么?回答是肯定的，但是不用我说，大家都知道，当然有总比没有好。
One thing is certain, that is, I will stop creating such works now (at present). It is not because the situation now has changed or been improved. The fact is on the contrary. Art appears rather powerless before realities. It is also hard for my artistic concept to be known by more audiences. Art is limited to a circle or a small range, just like the Internet in China. Is there an Internet in China? The answer is yes. But needless to say, everyone knows the real situation. But, of course, it’s better to have access to than be completely blocked away from the Internet.
3. In the interview in 2010 you said that around 100 got identity cards, have there been any more people since then?
在2010年的采访中你说，大约100人已經拿到身份证，目前2014年的情況如何？ 是否也反應政策或是城鄉的差距？
这几年几乎没有进展，这和我自己没有像作品刚开始实施的头几年那么投入地去推广有关(和什么政策，城乡差距都没有太大关系)，因为作品经过1998—2000年几年的推进后，我清楚地认识到在现实体制下，《身份证》这件作品只能是一件小范围作品，而且作品所要传递的信息好像已不再被人关心，人们习以为常，在我看来非常严肃的问题在现在很多人看来好像是游戏一样，当我意识到一件作品已经开始（或者已经）远离我的初衷，那也就到了该结束的时候了。
There is almost no progress in recent years because I didn’t go all out to advertise my works in recent years just as what I did in the years my work was firstly implemented (It has nothing to do with policies or gap between urban and rural areas.). Through the dissemination from 1998 to 2000, I have clearly realized that under the current system, Identity Card can only be small-range work, and moreover, people seem to be less concerned about the messages my work reveals. They have been accustomed to it. A very serious issue to me has become a game to many people. When I realize that my work is starting to deviate from (or has already deviated from) my original purpose, it shall meet its end.
4. What does in general national identity card mean to you? Does it represent any political ideology to you?
对于你来说，身份证意味着什么？它是否代表了政治意识形态或是你對現有體制的看法？
对于我来说，身份证就意味着你没有选择。虽然一个人在什么地方被生下来，被什么人生下来，确实没得选，确实是被动的。但是，当这个人成年以后，他（她）应该有权选择是继续留在出生地（父母所在地）还是选择迁徙到其他地方去，影响或者左右这一选择的只是个人的意志和个人对迁徙地的适应和生存能力，而不是其他诸如身份、户籍等等。也就是这个国家的公民应该享有联合国人权公约最基本的人权----人人享有迁徙自由。
To me, ID card means that you have no choice. It’s a fact that no one can choose where to be born or by whom to be born. It is a passive thing. But when he/she becomes a grownup, he/she should have the right to choose whether to go on staying at his/her birthplace (parents’ residential area) or to immigrate to another place. What influences or dominates such a choice can only be his/her personal will and adaptability to the resettled area, not other factors such as ID, registered permanent residence, etc. That is, the citizens in China should have the most fundamental human right endowed by the United Nations Human Rights Conventions – everyone should enjoy the freedom to immigrate.
5. Your first performance was Looking for a Missing Person in 1993 and then Missing Person Announcement, 1993, This Person is For Sale (Negotiate Price on Spot). Before starting with performance you were practicing painting why did you shift to the performance art? When did you feel the need?
你的第一个行为藝術是1993年的 然后是Missing Person Announcement, 和 This Person is For Sale (Negotiate Price on Spot)。是什么让你开始从油画创作转向了行为艺术的创作？你是什么时候感到这种转变的需要的？
我从未想过要转向。在我初涉艺术时，认识的艺术手段除了平面绘画再就是传统的雕塑了，对那个时期的我来说，雕塑可以说太遥不可及了，选择绘画是没有选择的选择。1998年我只身去了海南岛，在海南岛的一年多里，无论是对我当时的生活还是对我以后的艺术历程都产生了巨大的影响。在海南岛海口市最初的一段时间，我每晚都住在地下室旅馆，每晚2元钱，是那种一张床挨着一张床的过道，回去太晚就没床位了。有一天我稍晚了一点，就没住进去，后来只好在街上转，还好海口很热，夜晚也不冷，夜晚两三点还是很多人，后来后半夜在一个水泥平台上睡着了一会就天亮了，新的一天又开始了，原来居无定所，流落街头也不过如此。我在海口的一年多，有很大一部分时间都是在街上转悠，卖报纸、找工作、为报纸拉广告、到汽车站等人口密集区为自己当时所工作的小旅店拉客源等等。在这一过程中，我感触最深的就是满大街的寻人启事，电线杆上、旅馆招待所、居民楼、办公楼，甚至在大街上截住行人就问的，几乎无处不在。其实我自己也是不辞而别来到海南岛的，也是需要被寻找的人。
I have never thought of shifting. When I touched art in the beginning, I knew no artistic means other than flat drawing and traditional sculpture. To me at that time, learning sculpture is far beyond my reach, so I had to choose drawing. In 1998, I went alone to Hainan Island. I stayed there for more than one year, which had a profound influence upon not only my life at that time but also my artistic life later on. During my first days in Haikou City, Hainan Island, I had to stay at basement hotels for the night. Two yuan for each night. This sort of hotel is, in fact, an aisle with one bed closely placed to anther. If you came back too late, you would find all the beds had been occupied. Once, I came too late to stay at the hotel, so I had to wander in the streets. Luckily, it was hot in Haikou, not cold even at night. There were so many people even at two or three at night. I fell asleep against a cement platform in the latter half of that night. Soon the day broke and a new day began. The life of tramping the streets was nothing more than this. During the period of more than one year in Haikou, I spent a large amount of time wandering in the streets, selling newspapers, hunting jobs, distributing newspapers or soliciting guests for the hotel I worked with in the densely populated areas such as motor stations. During this process, what touched me most were notices for missing persons everywhere in the streets. They appeared on telegraph poles or inside hotels, residential buildings and office buildings. Sometimes, even the pedestrians in the streets were stopped for inquiry. These notices were everywhere. In fact, I myself came to Hainan Island without notifying others and could be counted as a person to be looked for.
1989年末，我回到云南，在海南的生活场景始终挥之不去，与此同时我也开始观察我当时所生活的城市昆明，我惊奇地发现，昆明同样充斥着寻人启事和小广告，我过去从来没有注意到这些。我突然觉得我应该做点什么，这一次显然任何平面的绘画和雕塑都不可能表达我的感受，我想到了张贴寻人启事小广告，当时我已不在乎这件作品到底是绘画、雕塑，还是其他什么了，反正就是能表达我的感受就足以。接下来是“寻人启事”小广告的内容，我猛然觉得那些在海南岛以及在世界各地被亲人朋友寻找的人，相对他（她）自己来说并没有丢失，他（她）只是在自觉不自觉地满世界找自己，正如我自己一样。于是我决定寻找自己，只是让我想不到的是，这一找就再也停不下来。
At the end of 1989, I came back to Yunnan. The life scenes of Hainan could not be erased from my mind. At the same time, I began to observe Kunming – the city where I lived at that time. To my surprise, I found it also filled with notices for missing persons and little ads. I had never noticed these before. Suddenly, I thought that I should do something. It was obvious that this time no flat drawing or sculpture could express my feelings. I thought of posting notices for missing persons or little ads. At that time, I didn’t mind whether this piece of work was a drawing, a sculpture or anything else. It was enough that it could express my feelings. Then I began to consider the contents of notices for missing persons. I suddenly felt that those being looked for at Hainan Island or in the rest of the world by their relatives and friends were, in fact, not lost to themselves. They were only looking for themselves everywhere in a conscious or subconscious way, just as what I was doing. Therefore, I decided to look for myself. What I didn’t expect was that I could not stop this process of seeking.
6. How would you describe your practice?
你会如何形容你的藝術主張或是有任何理論的實踐？你最终想要表达的是什么？
我一直认为艺术家仅仅是一个媒介，我一直寻求一种艺术与公众的关系，当我身背“此人出售”广告行走在大街上的时候，当我在公共场所张贴寻找我自己的 “寻人启事”小广告的时候，当我向别人推销由我自己签发的“身份证”的时候，我觉得此时艺术家自身已成为艺术的主体，成为媒介本身。艺术家的存在也许能给这个社会带来一些新的可能性，或不确定性。至少能给一个忙于生计的社会提供一种幻想和漫无边际的瞬间。
I have always been considering the artist as a medium. I have always been seeking a relationship between art and the public. When I wander with the “This Person Is for Sale” ad in the streets or seek my own “Looking for A Missing Person” in public places or promote to sell “Identity Card” issued by myself, I feel that the artist itself has become the main body of art and a medium. The existence of artists can provide this society with some new likelihoods or uncertainties. Or at least, it can provide this bustling society with a momentary and boundless fantasy.
7. Do you think art has a capacity to stimulate the discussion in the society? Comparing with two to three decades ago, what’s your opinion on the Chinese art now? What are the challenges and predicament for the contemporary Chinese artists, in your opinion?
你认为艺术有能力激发社会的讨论吗？您對於目前中國藝壇的現況，今昔之比，有什麼評價與看法？您認為對於中國當代藝術家有哪些挑戰與困境？
不能，好的艺术通常是唱反调的，不合作，挑刺，你说往西他要往东，甚至有时是“猥琐”的。这些都和主流社会所倡导的所谓正能量、歌舞升平、齐心合力、万众一心之类的假象格格不入。对于目前中国的艺术现况，如果是和1990年代比，今天的艺术显得平和而多元，但也少了一些发自内心的冲动，很难看到刻骨铭心和“不管不顾”的作品。
No, it can’t. A good art form usually strikes up a discordant tune or adopts an uncooperative or faultfinding attitude. It is always doing the contrary. And sometimes, it can even be considered “obscene”. All these are incompatible with the false appearances advocated by the mainstream society such as positive energy, singing and dancing in celebration of peace or making concerted efforts. As far as the status quo of China’s art is concerned, today’s art appears peaceful and multi-elemental compared with that of 1990s. However, it lacks the impulse from one’s inner world. The impressive and “desperate” works are rare to be seen.
对于中国当代艺术家所面临的挑战与困境，我现在觉得这个问题不太成立，因为今天虽然不能说已经完全全球化了，但你中有我，我中有你的现实已是不可争辩的事实，也就是说大家所面对的挑战与困境几乎都是一样的。如果一定要说中国艺术家所面临的挑战与困境有什么不同之处，那就是如果西方国家的艺术家挥拳打出去，无论怎么使劲，结果无一例外地都像是打在了棉花上，而中国艺术家只要卯足了劲，就一定能打在实实在在的墙上。
As to the challenges and plights which the Chinese contemporary artists are facing, I don’t think it to be a tenable issue. Though the complete globalization hasn’t been achieved yet, you can never deny the “me in you and you in me” situation. That is to say, the challenges and plights all men face are almost the same. If I have to identify the unique challenges and plights the Chinese artists are facing, I can say that if a Western artist shakes his fist with whatever strength, the result is, without exception, like striking the cotton; however, as long as a Chinese artist musters all his strength, he is sure to strike the solid wall.
8. In regard to your work VISA, you talked about the difficult situation as a Chinese traveling to the Western countries. Do you find the topic of identity cards and situations on VISAs and the tightened immigration policies reinforced by Western countries (mainly Europe and North America) somehow could be relevant? Why are you interested in political and migration related topics? When you work on pieces like ‘Identity Card’, do you have any art market or buyers in mind, or they are not your concern?
关于你谈到出國時的工作签證的情况时，作为一个中国人你旅行到西方国家，身份证和签证的话题主题是否相关？为什么您對於这些政治與移民的主题發生興趣？＠腌您創作像身分證或是其他有爭議性政治性作品時，是否也曾考慮過市場？或者買家與市場不是您的主要考量了？
当然相关，因为作为一个中国人，你到西方国家是必须签证的，当你费好大的劲终于获得了签证，别高兴太早，当你入境时，因为你的中国护照，时常还要受到特殊对待，长时间的盘问，拿着你的签证左看右看，好像签证不是他们大使馆签发的。
Of course, they are relevant. As a Chinese, you must get a visa if you want to go to a Western country. But when you get your visa through great efforts, it will be too early for you to relax. When you are entering their country, you will be specially treated for your Chinese passport. They will inquire you for a long time and carefully check your visa as if it were not issued by their embassy.
说到我为什么对于政治与移民问题发生兴趣，在此我想表明一下，在我看来这些问题其实也是艺术问题。不是我对这些问题发生兴趣，而是这些问题无时不对我的生活和艺术造成影响，上个网也只能是他们想让你看到的，有时网上“干净”到连一个裸露的乳房都看不到。出国办展览作品可能被扣，人可能被拒签。我不喜欢四平八稳，不疼不痒的作品，至于是否考虑市场的问题，我想说在1990年代初根本就没有什么市场，更谈不上考虑市场的问题了。
As to why I am interested in politics and issue of immigration, I have to say that these things are in fact an artistic issue. It’s not that I become interested with these things, but that these things are affecting my life and art career all the time. On the Internet, you can see nothing more than what they wish you to see. Sometimes, it is so “clean” that you can’t find a naked breast. If you want to hold an exhibition abroad, your works may be deducted or you can’t obtain a visa. I do not like methodical and well-balanced works. As to considering the issue of markets, I want to say that there were almost no markets in the early 1990s, let alone considering the issue of markets.
9. Your artworks Identity card as well as Looking for a Missing Person and This Person is For Sale seem quite political to me, like kind of revolt against something. Is it correct? If yes can you tell me more about it please?
你的作品Identity card，Looking for a Missing Person 和This Person is For Sale 在我看来极具政治意味，它们好像在反抗着什么。我是否可以这样理解？如果是的话，你能告诉我更多关于它们的信息吗？還是這代表您對變遷中的中國社會的看法？
可以这么理解，我不太喜欢向别人解读我的作品，更不会谈及所谓创作动机等问题，因为它们就没有动机，我不希望我的解释影响观众或或读者对我作品的解读。
It can be so interpreted. I don’t like my work being illustrated and I am more unwilling to talk about the so-called creative motives. There are no motives at all. I don’t hope that my explanation will influence the interpretation of my audiences or readers of my works.
10. When many contemporary Chinese artists tend to stress on ‘ Chineseness’ and ‘Chinese Identity’ and ‘Chinese elements’ for their art to cater for the market, what’s your view on this? Would you tend to choose a global issue to suit the fashion of globalization and for exhibition
works abroad? What are the challenges you encounter when exhibiting works for international audience, and how are they different from domestic audience in China?
當許多當代藝術家都使用中國式的符號以適應現今的藝術市場，您對於此現象有如此看法？您會比較傾向去中國化來達成全球性藝術？還是在選取題材上，你會傾向選取全球性議題作考量，以作為到國外展覽所需？您認為國內跟國位展覽有什麼不同與挑戰嘛？
对于中国式符号的使用，我觉得无所谓，无可厚非，欧美艺术家也有使用中国符号的，近年来好莱坞也常使用中国元素，各有各的目的。我自己在创作前不会刻意去想什么中国化还是全球性这些问题，我还是更注重跟随自己的内心，一定是我感兴趣和关注的主题样式才会被创作出来。我想作为这个世界上的一个人，我肯定和这个世界是关联的，这是一个人活着的证据，那么我感兴趣和关注的主题样式肯定会得到其他人的共鸣，关注和喜欢，只是人数多少的问题。对艺术家来说，艺术就是一场赌注，好的艺术家都是真正的赌徒，对于赌徒来说哪的赌场都一样。
I don’t mind using Chinese elements. There is nothing wrong. Some European and American artists are also using Chinese elements, and even Hollywood are using Chinese elements in recent years. They have different purposes. I won’t deliberately consider issues such as “Chineseness” or “globalization” before creating. I pay more attention to my inner heart. Only those topic forms that I’m interested in and concerned about will be created. As a human in this world, I’m sure to be linked with this world. This is the evidence that a man is living. Then the topic forms that I’m interested in and concerned about will surely evoke resonances, concerns and good feelings in others, though the number of people being evoked is uncertain. To an artist, art is like a gambling. A good artist is a real gambler. And to a gambler, he can gamble in any gambling house.
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